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Topic: What Breed(s) of Dogs have the most
fight drive |
Frederick
Reese Junior Member
Member # 551
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posted September 28, 2001 10:00 PM
Hello All,
Not to beat the fight drive thing to death, but what
breed/breeds of dogs have the most fight drive.
By this, I mean, precentage wise (best chance that any
given pup will develop fight drive) and the highest degree of
fight drive.
GSD, Mals, American Bulldogs, Filas...
Thanks for the chance to absorb some knowledge.
Fred
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Gunnar McBride
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posted October 12, 2001 08:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by tootsie: Gunner apbt stay
with it not because they are game but because they lack the
brain power to get out of the way.Never seen a game
pit,given the right conditions they all possess quitting
streak.The type you are talking about can be counted on one
hand. Again man stopping dogs who will do it in the real
world counted on one hand . Horese for courses ,its never
straight forward.
Tootsie Roll-
You obviously don't know much about bulldogs, except what
you read in PETA books. APBT are very smart on average,
just as smart as Mals and GSD. There are many, many game
APBT. Ever heard of Zebo, Chinaman, Mason's Hog, Bullyson,
or Snooty. There is one handfull, and I could name 100 others.
Gameness is a very difficult trait to keep. It is genetic,
not trained for. Any dog is tough when they are ahead, it is
only when they are losing that gameness becomes evident. This
is why only the bull breeds are used for hogs and other
activities where power and toughness is mandatory. Learn
about the breed before you talk trash. I would reccomend
any of the books by Richard F. Stratton, if you would like to
learn something...but I bet you don't care to know the real
deal, you are happy the way you are.
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Jordan
Junior Member Member # 334
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posted October 23, 2001 12:49 AM
Unfortunately, I do not have much to add to this thread
being a relative novice to the sport, but it does intrigue me.
I have a Boxer pup from strong German working lines. I
researched and purchased her for the purpose of competing in
Schutzhund. I have seen her mother do protection work (full
body suit and also Schutzhund sleeve) and was very impressed
with her courage and fight. She hit VERY hard and fought very
strongly, even when subjected to considerable pressure. Her
father is highly titled, though I have not seen him work.
I suppose the reason this thread intrigues me is that I was
told by the prez of the local DVG club that Boxers can't do
the work, that they do not have the jaw strength, courage, or
fight drive for Schutzhund and that perhaps I should consider
agility instead. It seems to me that each breed was originally
developed for a purpose. For the bull breeds, boar and bull
baiting were common uses. If the genetics are not appreciably
watered down through the years as in the case of the American
show-line Shepards and Boxers, how can a BREED used originally
for fighting large game (and working traits continually bread
for) not have courage and fighting instinct? Obviously
individual dogs will vary.
As I said above, I am a novice to this sport so I cannot
speak intelligently about this subject, but I'm interested in
hearing others opinions.
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Don Ackerson
Member Member # 1019
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posted December 26, 2001 10:08 AM
I beleive
the question was which breed had the most fight drive? Not
which breed was the most game?
Fight drive as in protection work I would say that the GSD
and Malonios have the most recorded accomplishment in this
arena. They are the most common dog used in Police,
Protection, French ring, etc...
As for smarts the GSD and Malinois in a intelligent test
conformed by Doctors that specialized in DOG phyciy. The GSD
was graded #3 and border collie was #1. No Matiffs was graded
higher than #10 besided the Rottiweiler. How effective a test?
Its questionable. This test was base on the dogs ability to
learn, maintain what was learned and respond on the 1st or 2nd
command.
Gameness the williness to fight against all odds, die
rather then retreat or hunt and hold wild animals. There is no
questioned that the APBT is the most game of group with the
ABD (both are tough) or the Fila (natural guard dogs 150 lbs
& > but lack stamina).
Each dogs has a purpose heres how I would answer that
question.
Fight drive as defined for protection purpose.
1. GSD & Malinois 2. Pit Bull & American Bull
dog 3. Fila (they don't take orders well)
Gameness for hunting or fighting.
1. Pit Bull & American Bull dog 2. GSD &
Malinois 3. Fila
Just my opinion, I've worked with pits bulls smart but
stuborn, they do hit hard but don't out well. And tough as
nail, I'd rather have a good GSD or a Mal, by the time you
teach the Pit to out. You could be S&R tracking, or
advance protection training or what ever.
--------------------
Don Ackerson
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Don Ackerson
Member Member # 1019
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posted December 28, 2001 11:33 AM
PBM
(Pitbull man?)
For 1st sifu;If i had a choice in choosing between a
working shepherd or pitbull going through a dangerous
alley,neighborhood etc.i'll have to go with that pit.Who ever
is going to rob you believe me there going to use extreme
prejudice its going to take a dog that bring just as much
heat. =======================================
Let me first say this that the Pit bull, are very
impressive animals and can be trained to do various task but
really excell in pit fighting. So here we agree, they are
impressive.
And yes, I've worked APBT they can be kind of slow to
recongizing the helper as a threat, partially because of the
statment below. Now I will admit once they understand whats
asked of them, they are impressive, until asked to out. All
that for nothing.
Because, I think this is the point, dogs do best, what they
are bred to do. And the issue is which dog has the most fight
drive not which could win a dog fight or man vs dog fight.
In our scenario the teams skill in using the dog as an
agressive alternative to deadly force and or crowd
control/herding a crowd (breeding again, the herders does it
better, no tunnel vision like in the APBT), would be more
important, then killing or serverly miaming the attackers.
Lets get real, if surviving a dangerous situation was based
on just the type dog you used, we would both be in trouble.
Survival here would be based on how well prepared &
trained the Man/dog team was. In saying this I'd take the
GSD/Mal because he would be more apt to concentrate on our
mission rather then jumping another dog.
I will agree that I've never seen a GSD do the things that
APBT or AM bull dog will do. But I wouldn't let my dog fight
to the death by himself, because he would only do so to save
me. This is what I'm talking about. And being part of this
team my AR-15, colt 45acp and 92sf are saying were coming
home.
This is were we really differ, I agree that PBT bites
harder then a GSD or Mal. And would win a fight between the
group. But thats not the point.
The GSD or Mal is without a doubt the better Police K9 or
Protection dog. Because of whats really being used in the real
world.
--------------------
Don Ackerson
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Don Ackerson
Member Member # 1019
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posted December 30, 2001 11:34 PM
milt
Don, I'm glad you are one of the good guys. Were you
dissapointed that Santa didn't bring you a street
sweeper. Milt
============================================ Milt To
quote Clint Eastwood in Josie Wells, "A man gotta know his
limitations" I'll just stick to what I have.
Whats your opinion on the Which breed has the most fight
drive between the four selection above?
--------------------
Don Ackerson
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Gunnar McBride
Junior Member Member # 414
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posted December 31, 2001 06:56 PM
I have 2
Filas that guard my dog yard since I had some dogs stolen last
year. Since I got them, no problem. I also don't have many
visitors...which is OK with me. The Army in Brazil uses
Filas. They have found that they are better in the jungle than
either GSD or Mals. Better heat tolerence, stamina, and far,
far stronger. I looked at all the conventional breeds, and
discarded them, narrowing the choices to the Fila, and the
Caucasian Mtn. Dog, which is pretty much a Fila in different
clothing. Sure, APBT are the game dogs, I know, I've owned
over 75, but mine are bred not to be human aggressive, they
are very hot though, and don't like other dogs at all.
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Frederick
Reese Junior Member
Member # 551
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posted December 31, 2001 07:15 PM
Milt,
Uhm, FIGHT drive CANNOT be found in all breeds. (Classic
example is the Labrador). Even in breeds which may carry fight
drive, it will not be found in all dogs of that breed. Same is
true with gameness. Not all pitbulls are game. Sure, they used
to be, when they were bred by dogfighters for the specific
purpose of dogfighting where gameness is essential. But that
required a carefull breeding program which culled out the less
game. When pitbulls became "popular" and breed for looks and
profit, proper breeding for gameness went out the window.
As for Jack Russell Terriers, I have one and they are one
bad ass little dog - Patterdale people will say different and
claim that their black dogs are better (don't know, never seen
one in person). Unfortunately, the AKC has admitted the JRT
into its ranks and, as they say, there goes the neighborhood.
No quicker way to ruin a breed than to let the AKC get to
extend it's influence with it.
Gunner,
I've been thinking about the Fila, but I don't like loose
skin, slobbery dogs (maybe I should just get over that).
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Lou Castle
Member Member # 131
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posted January 01, 2002 06:44 PM
I think
that this discussion is headed down the wrong fork in the
road. It’s happening because some are using terms that have
fixed definitions but they are being used another way. These
terms have been used in the following way for dozens of years.
To change their meaning, as has happened here, only brings
confusion. I didn’t make up these definitions, they come from
years of usage. We don’t want to get into the position taken
by a famous (infamous?) man who said, “It depends on what the
definition of ‘is’ is.”
Several terms should be defined here for the purposes of
clarification:
“Combat drive” – any drive that a dog uses to engage an
opponent. Examples of combat drives include, fight, defense,
and prey. Some people don’t believe in the existence of fight
drive and use another term, defense–aggression that is usually
defined as a result of defensive drive turning into action.
“Fight drive” – a drive that involves the detaining or
driving off of an opponent
“Prey drive” – the catching and killing of prey.
“Defense” drive – defending himself from a threat.
“Survival Drive” – the dog doing any number of things
eating, fighting, running from a larger opponent, etc. that
the dog does in order to preserve it’s life.
--------------------
Regards
Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA (Uncllou@aol.com)
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