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Author Topic: What Breed(s) of Dogs have the most fight drive
Frederick Reese
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posted September 28, 2001 10:00 PM     Profile for Frederick Reese   Email Frederick Reese     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello All,

Not to beat the fight drive thing to death, but what breed/breeds of dogs have the most fight drive.

By this, I mean, precentage wise (best chance that any given pup will develop fight drive) and the highest degree of fight drive.

GSD, Mals, American Bulldogs, Filas...

Thanks for the chance to absorb some knowledge.

Fred


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Vince P.
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posted September 30, 2001 01:39 PM     Profile for Vince P.   Email Vince P.     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I don't know if that is a fair question. Fight drive is part genetic and part training. I would be surprised if you got a straight answer on this one.
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Dimitrij Glebov
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posted October 10, 2001 12:35 PM     Profile for Dimitrij Glebov   Email Dimitrij Glebov     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
In an Unnamed city in Europe is a hospital that maintains a statistics about reported owners bitten by their dogs in the period of 3 months. This data tells nothing and allot. From the given number of the dogs 47,3% bullterriers, 21,3% pitbulls,
8% rotweilers and 23,3% all other breedss.
First of all BAD OWNERS, second only Rots capable of protection work from the lot. So the immeness gameness and drive in Bullterriers is NOT usable for protection work, they are big game hunters. Stick to Eds advice.

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Gunnar McBride
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posted October 10, 2001 02:29 PM     Profile for Gunnar McBride   Email Gunnar McBride     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You must be kidding...game Bullterriers??
Of the breeds mentioned, only the pit bull would be "game".
Never been a game GSD, Mal, or Bullterrier.

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Dimitrij Glebov
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posted October 11, 2001 02:24 AM     Profile for Dimitrij Glebov   Email Dimitrij Glebov     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My error, but does not concern the point.
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Dimitrij Glebov
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posted October 11, 2001 03:04 AM     Profile for Dimitrij Glebov   Email Dimitrij Glebov     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As ever language misunderstanding possible.
Gameness - does not retreat, fights to death etc.
Bullterrier - gladiator among dogs, full of energy, fearless, does not retreat. Why not game? I am not an exelent english speaker so can err.
Originaly bred for RAT killing, champion in that. Today used in europe for (dont know the word) WILD SWINE MALE? controling, and hunting. Bites the beast in the head and grips firmly. Hunters use spears rather then firearms.
The point acualy was -> Every breed has its use, why too much fight drive? Exelent dogs for protection are known. Almost all breeds can be taught some of it or all, but why puting a nail in the wall with the VCR if you can do it with the hammer?

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tootsie
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posted October 12, 2001 02:26 AM     Profile for tootsie   Email tootsie     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Gunner apbt stay with it not because they are game but because they lack the brain power to get out of the way.Never seen a game pit,given the right conditions they all
possess quitting streak.The type you are talking about can be counted on one hand.
Again man stopping dogs who will do it in the real world counted on one hand .
Horese for courses ,its never straight forward.

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Dimitrij Glebov
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posted October 12, 2001 03:36 AM     Profile for Dimitrij Glebov   Email Dimitrij Glebov     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It is allways down to genetics and VERY GOOD training of a right type of the dog for the job. The question was what breed has a hardest fight drive. The fight drive is trained in dogs trough centuries. Known fact is a wolf does not attack a man (true for most healthy animals).
Also we talk almost exclusively about representative type of certain breed, and they are just like humans some good some bad and very little number good for special forces.

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Gunnar McBride
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posted October 12, 2001 08:58 AM     Profile for Gunnar McBride   Email Gunnar McBride     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tootsie:
Gunner apbt stay with it not because they are game but because they lack the brain power to get out of the way.Never seen a game pit,given the right conditions they all
possess quitting streak.The type you are talking about can be counted on one hand.
Again man stopping dogs who will do it in the real world counted on one hand .
Horese for courses ,its never straight forward.

Tootsie Roll-

You obviously don't know much about bulldogs, except what you read in PETA books.
APBT are very smart on average, just as smart as Mals and GSD.
There are many, many game APBT.
Ever heard of Zebo, Chinaman, Mason's Hog, Bullyson, or Snooty. There is one handfull, and I could name 100 others.
Gameness is a very difficult trait to keep. It is genetic, not trained for. Any dog is tough when they are ahead, it is only when they are losing that gameness becomes evident. This is why only the bull breeds are used for hogs and other activities where power and toughness is mandatory.
Learn about the breed before you talk trash.
I would reccomend any of the books by Richard F. Stratton, if you would like to learn something...but I bet you don't care to know the real deal, you are happy the way you are.


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Jordan
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posted October 23, 2001 12:49 AM     Profile for Jordan   Email Jordan     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Unfortunately, I do not have much to add to this thread being a relative novice to the sport, but it does intrigue me. I have a Boxer pup from strong German working lines. I researched and purchased her for the purpose of competing in Schutzhund. I have seen her mother do protection work (full body suit and also Schutzhund sleeve) and was very impressed with her courage and fight. She hit VERY hard and fought very strongly, even when subjected to considerable pressure. Her father is highly titled, though I have not seen him work.

I suppose the reason this thread intrigues me is that I was told by the prez of the local DVG club that Boxers can't do the work, that they do not have the jaw strength, courage, or fight drive for Schutzhund and that perhaps I should consider agility instead. It seems to me that each breed was originally developed for a purpose. For the bull breeds, boar and bull baiting were common uses. If the genetics are not appreciably watered down through the years as in the case of the American show-line Shepards and Boxers, how can a BREED used originally for fighting large game (and working traits continually bread for) not have courage and fighting instinct? Obviously individual dogs will vary.

As I said above, I am a novice to this sport so I cannot speak intelligently about this subject, but I'm interested in hearing others opinions.


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PBM
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posted November 20, 2001 06:57 PM     Profile for PBM   Email PBM     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I AGREE WITH YOU MCBRIDE SHE KNOWS VERY LITTLE ABOUT THE APBT.PERSONALLY I HAVE YET TO FIND ANY SHEPHERD THAT IS AS TOUGH AS THE
PITBULL WHEN IT COMES TO PERSONAL PROTECTION
KICK THE MESS OUT OF A SHEPHERD HE'S NOT GOING TO BE SO RELUCTANT TO COME BACK BUT THE APBT WILL BE THERE TRUST ME ON THAT.

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az trooper
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posted December 25, 2001 07:26 PM     Profile for az trooper   Email az trooper     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What breed........I didn't know there was anything other than DSHs, those little yellow dogs that wish they were GSDs and the dogs that look like mutant Black and Tan Coonhounds ( which also wish they were GSDs). I'm sure this will bring some heat!!!!!!!!
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Don Ackerson
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posted December 26, 2001 10:08 AM     Profile for Don Ackerson   Email Don Ackerson     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I beleive the question was which breed had the most fight drive? Not which breed was the most game?

Fight drive as in protection work I would say that the GSD and Malonios have the most recorded accomplishment in this arena. They are the most common dog used in Police, Protection, French ring, etc...

As for smarts the GSD and Malinois in a intelligent test conformed by Doctors that specialized in DOG phyciy. The GSD was graded #3 and border collie was #1. No Matiffs was graded higher than #10 besided the Rottiweiler. How effective a test? Its questionable. This test was base on the dogs ability to learn, maintain what was learned and respond on the 1st or 2nd command.

Gameness the williness to fight against all odds, die rather then retreat or hunt and hold wild animals. There is no questioned that the APBT is the most game of group with the ABD (both are tough) or the Fila (natural guard dogs 150 lbs & > but lack stamina).

Each dogs has a purpose heres how I would answer that question.

Fight drive as defined for protection purpose.

1. GSD & Malinois
2. Pit Bull & American Bull dog
3. Fila (they don't take orders well)

Gameness for hunting or fighting.

1. Pit Bull & American Bull dog
2. GSD & Malinois
3. Fila

Just my opinion, I've worked with pits bulls smart but stuborn, they do hit hard but don't out well. And tough as nail, I'd rather have a good GSD or a Mal, by the time you teach the Pit to out. You could be S&R tracking, or advance protection training or what ever.

--------------------

Don Ackerson


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Ed Frawely
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posted December 26, 2001 10:25 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I can see that som of us need to work on our english. Please do so before returning to my site so as not to cause anymore confusion.
Fight drive is not to be confused with fear biting. Fight is not the only thing tht causes dogs to bite. Since you could not get a straight answer from these so caled "trainers" on this forrum the answer is German shepherd. My GSDs seem to have more than any other line of GSDs that i kave eve seen. Why is this? Because i know what the hell I am doing unlike some people on this board. Yall spend so much time writing that I doubt you ever train. Give someone else a chance to reply. There ae tw types of trainers. hoewho do it and those wannabes who write about it.

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Ed Frawley
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posted December 26, 2001 10:41 AM     Profile for Ed Frawley   Email Ed Frawley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The above post was not done by me - it is being done by a very sick disturbed and
pitiful individual who goes on lists like this and posts under other peoples names.

My member number on my own list is not 1061 as this persons is.

If anyone would like the name of this individual they can contact me on a private email.


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PBM
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posted December 26, 2001 11:14 AM     Profile for PBM   Email PBM     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
For 1st sifu;Have you worked a shepherd that
exhibit the same fight drive or pain tolerance as that of the fighting breeds?When
pain is in the picture,i just haven't seen a shepherd that will stay there.When that fight
drive that the pitbull exhibits towards other
animals is channeled at an early age into personal protection or man work he's second to none.I haven't seen a shepherd that is as tough as nails.If i had a choice in choosing
between a working shepherd or pitbull going through a dangerous alley,neighborhood etc.i'll have to go with that pit.Who ever is going to rob you believe me there going to use extreme prejudice its going to take a dog that bring just as much heat.

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Don Ackerson
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posted December 28, 2001 11:33 AM     Profile for Don Ackerson   Email Don Ackerson     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
PBM (Pitbull man?)

For 1st sifu;If i had a choice in choosing between a working shepherd or pitbull going through a dangerous alley,neighborhood etc.i'll have to go with that pit.Who ever is going to rob you believe me there going to use extreme prejudice its going to take a dog that bring just as much heat.
=======================================

Let me first say this that the Pit bull, are very impressive animals and can be trained to do various task but really excell in pit fighting. So here we agree, they are impressive.

And yes, I've worked APBT they can be kind of slow to recongizing the helper as a threat, partially because of the statment below. Now I will admit once they understand whats asked of them, they are impressive, until asked to out. All that for nothing.

Because, I think this is the point, dogs do best, what they are bred to do. And the issue is which dog has the most fight drive not which could win a dog fight or man vs dog fight.

In our scenario the teams skill in using the dog as an agressive alternative to deadly force and or crowd control/herding a crowd (breeding again, the herders does it better, no tunnel vision like in the APBT), would be more important, then killing or serverly miaming the attackers.

Lets get real, if surviving a dangerous situation was based on just the type dog you used, we would both be in trouble. Survival here would be based on how well prepared & trained the Man/dog team was. In saying this I'd take the GSD/Mal because he would be more apt to concentrate on our mission rather then jumping another dog.

I will agree that I've never seen a GSD do the things that APBT or AM bull dog will do. But I wouldn't let my dog fight to the death by himself, because he would only do so to save me. This is what I'm talking about. And being part of this team my AR-15, colt 45acp and 92sf are saying were coming home.

This is were we really differ, I agree that PBT bites harder then a GSD or Mal. And would win a fight between the group. But thats not the point.

The GSD or Mal is without a doubt the better Police K9 or Protection dog. Because of whats really being used in the real world.

--------------------

Don Ackerson


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milt
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posted December 28, 2001 12:06 PM     Profile for milt   Email milt     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Don,
I'm glad you are one of the good guys. Were you dissapointed that Santa didn't bring you a street sweeper.

Milt


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Don Ackerson
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posted December 30, 2001 11:34 PM     Profile for Don Ackerson   Email Don Ackerson     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
milt

Don,
I'm glad you are one of the good guys. Were you dissapointed that Santa didn't bring you a street sweeper.
Milt
============================================
Milt
To quote Clint Eastwood in Josie Wells, "A man gotta know his limitations" I'll just stick to what I have.

Whats your opinion on the Which breed has the most fight drive between the four selection above?

--------------------

Don Ackerson


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milt
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posted December 31, 2001 05:43 PM     Profile for milt   Email milt     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Don, You are ok in my book. In my opinion the pit bull is most game. Fight drive can be found in all breeds. I read a book, if you ever can get your hands on it. It is called the diary of a rat hunting man.I was once interested in Jack Russels.The book was about a guy who used Jrt's to hunt rats.What could be more courageous then a dog going underground for days fighting rats. The dogs face would be ripped to shreds and they were stiil game to keep going.
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Gunnar McBride
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posted December 31, 2001 06:56 PM     Profile for Gunnar McBride   Email Gunnar McBride     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have 2 Filas that guard my dog yard since I had some dogs stolen last year.
Since I got them, no problem. I also don't have many visitors...which is OK with me.
The Army in Brazil uses Filas. They have found that they are better in the jungle than either GSD or Mals. Better heat tolerence, stamina, and far, far stronger.
I looked at all the conventional breeds, and discarded them, narrowing the choices to the Fila, and the Caucasian Mtn. Dog, which is pretty much a Fila in different clothing.
Sure, APBT are the game dogs, I know, I've owned over 75, but mine are bred not to be human aggressive, they are very hot though, and don't like other dogs at all.

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Frederick Reese
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posted December 31, 2001 07:15 PM     Profile for Frederick Reese   Email Frederick Reese     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Milt,

Uhm, FIGHT drive CANNOT be found in all breeds. (Classic example is the Labrador). Even in breeds which may carry fight drive, it will not be found in all dogs of that breed. Same is true with gameness. Not all pitbulls are game. Sure, they used to be, when they were bred by dogfighters for the specific purpose of dogfighting where gameness is essential. But that required a carefull breeding program which culled out the less game. When pitbulls became "popular" and breed for looks and profit, proper breeding for gameness went out the window.

As for Jack Russell Terriers, I have one and they are one bad ass little dog - Patterdale people will say different and claim that their black dogs are better (don't know, never seen one in person). Unfortunately, the AKC has admitted the JRT into its ranks and, as they say, there goes the neighborhood. No quicker way to ruin a breed than to let the AKC get to extend it's influence with it.

Gunner,

I've been thinking about the Fila, but I don't like loose skin, slobbery dogs (maybe I should just get over that).


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milt
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posted January 01, 2002 10:17 AM     Profile for milt   Email milt     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Frederick, I stand corrected. What I was thinking was that no matter what dog breed, in a certain situation they will go into a fight drive for survival.I have seen a lab in fight drive.Yes I totaly agree its not the norm but its there. Dr.Carl Semencic has some interesting books on fighting dogs. I have never seen that little patterdale terrier in person either, but it has my interest. Can you imagine that little 12 pound dog killing a coon.

milt


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Frederick Reese
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posted January 01, 2002 11:15 AM     Profile for Frederick Reese   Email Frederick Reese     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If I still lived back east, I would have picked up a Patterdale to work with my JRT. I was also thinking of a Jagdterrier, but they are a bit big for going to ground. But since I moved to New Mexico last February, I have had no chance to hunt my terrier (he does try to dig to the prairiedogs, but they have too small a hole for him to get through and the digging process is too slow for him to catch up to them.

Yep, these little dogs will go down a hole and take on a coon much bigger (and fox, badger, whatever).

I wonder if anyone has tried to title a 15lbs. terrier in Schutzhund...

Happy Gnu Year


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Lou Castle
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posted January 01, 2002 06:44 PM     Profile for Lou Castle   Email Lou Castle     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think that this discussion is headed down the wrong fork in the road. It’s happening because some are using terms that have fixed definitions but they are being used another way. These terms have been used in the following way for dozens of years. To change their meaning, as has happened here, only brings confusion. I didn’t make up these definitions, they come from years of usage. We don’t want to get into the position taken by a famous (infamous?) man who said, “It depends on what the definition of ‘is’ is.”

Several terms should be defined here for the purposes of clarification:

“Combat drive” – any drive that a dog uses to engage an opponent. Examples of combat drives include, fight, defense, and prey. Some people don’t believe in the existence of fight drive and use another term, defense–aggression that is usually defined as a result of defensive drive turning into action.

“Fight drive” – a drive that involves the detaining or driving off of an opponent

“Prey drive” – the catching and killing of prey.

“Defense” drive – defending himself from a threat.

“Survival Drive” – the dog doing any number of things eating, fighting, running from a larger opponent, etc. that the dog does in order to preserve it’s life.

--------------------

Regards

Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
(Uncllou@aol.com)


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